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Posted: Mon Oct 19 @ 9:22 am Post subject: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
I was wondering what you guys thought about This. Apparently they are going to use Listen only servers? What kind of cockamamie crap is this? I'm not very technical in this sort of thing but isn't this going to make MP on MW2 suck?
Personally I have no problem with MW2 using the Steam client to keep track of each copy of the game for pirating reasons. With as many stolen COD4 keys that were floating around I don't blame them for that. I really see most PC games going this route in the future to be honest. I mean it HAS too.
The listening server on the other hand is crap. There is no reason why we can't verify ID with steam (or whoever) and then see a list of Dedicated servers to choose from. They are creating a problem trying to solve another and it's really irritating. _________________
Joined: Jul 19, 2005 Posts: 2123 Location: Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far, Far South Austin Down Under
Posted: Mon Oct 19 @ 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
What it is going to do is make MW2 full of a bunch of cheating bastards... P2P based gaming is very prone to cheating and seems to be the biggest reasons to not use it. If all of the game information is presented to the player, they will find the means easily to cheat the system.
It makes it cheaper to deploy on the publishers front though so I can see why they do this... Personally if I can still get into some great battles with my friends, I could care less. There are ALWAYS cheaters out there. The problem may be slightly nullified by the publisher squashing loopholes quickly and hopefully using a client based application to quickly detect cheats...
Meh, as long as they have LAN support I am happy... _________________
Posted: Tue Oct 20 @ 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
"Watered-down Warfare 2 - Infinity Ward's first big flop"
Honestly, this sounds very much like they are trying to make multiplayer function like it does on a console. I just don't see this as a positive move in anyway. Dedicated servers are often the hubs for gaming communities. People find a server where the people are pretty cool and keep going back there. I have a feeling that this will work a bit like L4D's match making sans the ded servers. I think that sucks because L4D matchmaking has always felt a little cold. "Here, shove ya in this game, enjoy." Granted this usually functions pretty well, I just don't see this working in modern warfare.
In the end, all the comments about the game being "less serious" and "more accessible" simply say to me "We are watering this down for the console-tards." Screw that. I don't want my PC to behave like a console. Maybe I'm wrong and this will all be wonderful. However, one of the last times a company tried this, the PC was given a festering pile of shit called Rainbow Six Vegas. It managed to suck in more ways than one while completely alienated RB6 players who appreciated the previous games. I'm calling it here and now, I think Modern Warfare 2 is going to suck. _________________ I AM rackmountable.
Posted: Tue Oct 20 @ 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
just don't buy it.
I'm not going to buy any more games until I know they are going to be fun.
COD is just another FPS... just another lame face.
Why bother? _________________ Worklog: ATTN2Detail
Worklog: RPM Flow Sensors for Liquid
Posted: Wed Nov 04 @ 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
You have got to be kidding me. They come out with a game that - graphically looks great and is the successor to COD 4 and then they turn the PC gamers version of it to crap.
OK, let me make this perfectly plain and simple, PC games are for “Gays”…… you are the minority, console games are easier for the average consumer to pick up and start playing, the player adapts easily to the game, thus the reason the game makers cater to these users. Not to mention you do not have to run out and buy the biggest baddest video card and processor each time you want to play a new version of a game, so that minimal pixilation occurs during the rendering of the flux capacitor in full 1080p………I know it doesnt make sense…..
Its a matter of money for these guys, and where the market share lies……not to mention console games kick ass, and PC gamers “suck balls!”
The first and second comments on kotaku say it all well:
"Another example about how consoles continue to pull the PC Gaming platform backwards."
" I agree, and I'm sad to see how apathetic and little sympathy many console gamers have.
PC gaming is more important than a lot of console gamers, and people in the industry today, give it credit for.
PC gaming was the backbone of Western gaming; Western games are PC games. Everyone celebrates the creativity, ingenuity, or originality of this generations' developers, but upon closer inspection many of these developers and games were closely tied with PC gaming in its beginning.
Pretty much the entire FPS genre has been ripped straight from the PC to consoles. Console FPS games this generation resemble something like Quake more than Goldeneye. Many of the biggest games in the genre this generation had their roots on the PC (and Mac in the case of Halo).
"Western RPGs, which has also become popular this generation, was kept alive and thrived on the PC while JRPGs flooded the console market."
"Online multiplayer, which has become so important this generation, was pioneered on the PC.
In the long run, PC gaming losing relevance is bad for everyone, not just PC gamers. The PC provides an environment that supports the development of new ideas and is suitable for smaller developers because of it's almost non-existent barriers of entry. People complain about PC gaming needing to purchase video cards, but fail to recognize that those purchases help test and fund further improvements. You could go so far as to say that PC gamers help subsidize the graphical improvements consoles get. The console environment stifles creativity and innovation; it's driven too much by profit. See the Japanese market and the issues around stagnation. PC gaming has been around just as long yet it didn't face that problem to the same degree until formerly PC games abandoned the platform in favour of consoles.
Now the question is this: after everything that can be taken from the PC has been took, and PC gaming is truly dead, will the Western console market face the same dilemma that the Japanese are facing today?
The complexity of PC gaming isn't a negative, and I'm surprised so many self-proclaimed "hardcore gamers" see it as such. Having to learn a little bit about the platform to enjoy it means that only those that care about gaming will become gamers; in essence all PC gamers are hardcore gamers in the truest sense. With all the talk about how Nintendo casuals are ruining gaming (which is total bullshit by the way) one would think that console gamers would recognize that they're doing exactly what they claim casuals would do, which is killing "gaming"."
So, highlights of the chat. I've moved and combined similar points and questions.
xxTex: Can explain how IW.net works for the PC platform?
Mackey-IW: PC has no common provider of matchmaking like on xbox360, so to have match making on the PC we had to create IW.Net, kind of similar to the match making networks created for RTS games on PC. This was not a trivial undertaking, although it's understandable that these days consumers may take match match making for granted.
This sums up one of my biggest griefs. If PC gamers wanted a multiplayer experience like those on consoles, we'd be playing on consoles. I could understand this direction had there been demand for a matchmaking system but there just wasn't.
Mackey-IW: MW2 supports games from 1v1 in Cagematch all the way up to 9v9 in the Ground War playlist.
Josh111: PC Question... What will the max amount of players per map be for PC multiplayer on IW.net
GeneralClean: With the new IW.net, how many players can it support at one time with each server set-up, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12, 16 vs 16, and how much bandwidth are we talking about per player basis, Upload and Download?
Vince-IW: 9v9
Mackey-IW: The max number of players on all platforms are 1v1 through 9v9. This is the number of players we focused on when we were balancing map size, perks, classes, challenges, etc.
Axen: Please explain how a 9v9 match is a multiplayer experience? I'd have more fun serving lunch at a local nursing home.
GeneralClean: So how can you justify 9 vs 9 at the most on PC when we had 32 vs 32 in COD4?
Mackey-IW: The CoD4 maps were not balanced for 32vs32. In MW2 the entire experience is carefully balanced for a smaller range of players.
This certainly feels life a step forward. Yeah right. While I will agree that some maps in COD4 certainly didn't play well with large groups, at least we had the option. Some other maps played very well. This is all excuses. They praise IW.net for its ping tolerance. I guess the idea was to lower bar until they had performance they could brag about.
pittboss: will the private multiplayer matches for the pc be run as a p2p connections or are they run via the IWnet?
Mackey-IW: IWNet matches players together based on several factors including ping and skill. After players are matched, the most suitable host is determined. That player hosts until they quit, at which time hosting responsibilities will normally migrate to another player without interrupting the match.
Essentially, all multiplayer is on listen servers hosted by people playing in the match. Note here that Mackey says that if the host quits, hosting will 'normally' migrate to another player without interruption. This is later contradicted. As a related point of interest, when setting search filters in a server browser, how many of us choose to only view dedicated servers? I suspect that it is pretty much all of us.
maniac1969: How are PC gaming clans going to uphold their clan rules in the IW-net system? Are you going to give admin rights to gaming rooms so that admins can Kick or Ban players who refuse to follow clan rules? For example, {MRoA} servers prohibit racial comments from guest and/or clan members...
Mackey-IW: In response to the PC clan question: Private matches are a way for players to easily play with their friends and apply whatever House Rules they want. You can not kick players from Ranked matches. If language is a problem you can easily mute players.
The clan issue comes up a lot in the chat. It boils down to "If your clan can deal with limitations we've imposed, you'll really enjoy our game! If not, fuck you. Essentially clans are screwed. I'm not a member of any clans but I do recognize their significance in multiplayer PC gaming. Most dedicated servers are managed by clans. Generally, clan servers will have an admin around to help police gameplay and kick/ban asshats. This has upsides and downsides but has worked well overall.
kaRMa: Regarding the PC version, will all games be hosted by players or just private matches? And will the host have a zero ping advantage?
Mackey-IW: We put a lot of work into making the game tolerant of latency. In my personal experience it is not obvious which player is host. The game plays well on broadband.
[b]Bullshit. A listen server host does have an advantage
Stormbringer: If a game on IW.net is hosted by a player would that player not then have an unfair advantage in terms of network latency?
Mackey-IW: We put a lot of work into making the game tolerant of latency. In my personal experience is not obvious which player is host. The game plays well on broadband. Yes, this canned response was used twice
TRU-Jennifer: Are you considering dedicated servers for the PC gamer in the near future?
Mackey-IW: Our main focus right now is on making sure the game will work well when it is released (on all platforms).
As the chat goes on, they seem to get beaten down a bit by the dedicated server questions. The responses get weaker each time. Non-responses like this and those along the lines of "You'll see when you play the game on Nov 10" are used for many questions. Pathetic.
Porschy: Will you guys ever rethink about making a possible dedicated server patch after the initial launch? BTW I LOVE U GUYS <3
Vince-IW: We feel the PC game is great in it's current form. We put a lot of work into IWnet in an effort to make the PC experience better for our users. If there is a need for somthing more in the future we will address as needed.
Stringarray: Will IW ever consider developing games on the PC to support dedicated servers, be it MW2 patches or future endeavors? Just curious if dedicated servers are on the radar anymore.
Mackey-IW: Our goal is to provide the best experience for our users, so nothing is ever "off the table". We are always evaluating our options.
Suddenly dedicated servers are a possibility again. Weird. Perhaps they pulled their heads out of their asses far enough to expose an ear.
JunkyNL: I like many others, have friends from all over the world and like to play games against each other. So with this new system we wont be able to play lag free against each other? And is there still a (Offline) LAN function?(there is no internet at that location) (the 402 site doesn't answers this question)
Vince-IW: You can party up with your friends and you will be placed in a game that works well for everyone.
Themouse: Hi,and sorry if it got asked ,or answered in the first 10mins, I had trouble connecting, I only actually want to know 1 thing, will you re-introduce dedicated server support, a yes or no will do? So I can enjoy the rest of the chat, or go off and do something more useful
thajuggaloz: Is there a possiblity IW will release Dedicated Servers in a future patch? I am in a large international COD clan and IWnet/9vs9 will be impossible for us as a group to play together.
Vince-IW: We can't predict the future... yet.
Another vague response.
h4msandwich: Has IWnet been tested in European settings? My clan plays european leagues and we got ppl from Eastern europe, UK and Sweden meeting in the same match. How is this going to play out considering siginificant differences in Bandwith and connection qualities between players. Will host player always have the ping advantage. Can a match be hosted by 'third' person, not taking part in the match?
Mackey-IW: Players do not control who hosts.
krm2014: Will the IWNET multiplayer system compensate for the undoubtly low ping that the host computer will have for the other players, or will the host have an advantage over the other players? Also, going back to clans...Is there a way to have more than 18 people in a server, because my clan has at least 100 members and we like to get 20-30 on our servers at the same time.
Mackey-IW: Games cap out at 9v9. The software has great latency tolerance. See above!
Non-answer strikes again. Ping balance would have to be a huge part of IWnet yet all they want to say is that it is great.
maniac1969: Vince, there are 178,000 voices that say you need dedicated servers for the PC. COD4 is the bigest online game in history! Why in the world would you take away dedicated servers and change the whole MP experience for us? And Mackey, the PC version with dedicated servers is already the best experience the way it is!
Vince-IW: All I can say is that we changed it to make it a better and easier experience. Also, not all of the names on that list are legit. :smileywink:
Mackey-IW: 402 signed it 4 times I heard.
They seem to laugh off the concern of the PC gaming community and simply offer just another crap response that doesn't address the issue.
kaRMa: Please give me a direct answer. On the PC version. Are all games hosted by players, and is there a 5 second delay when host migration is in effect?
Vince-IW: yes.
I mentioned this before. A sudden 5 second delay doesn't sound like much but this will play out like the horrible server side lag. Retarded.
TRU-Jennifer: What are the current steps being taken in regard to active blocking measures that some major ISPs have taken regarding Peer 2 Peer connections, such as what Comcast does?
Mackey-IW: Only players capable of hosting will be host.
Fair enough. Still, it wouldn't be a problem if we had dedicated servers.
Ryan-IW: We understand your concern for the PC version as it is a very important topic. We keep our loyalties to making good games. Fun games that people can play worldwide and on multiple platforms. We feel that most or all of your questions will be answered on November 10. We had a blast developing this game for the last two years.
I doubt it. At the very least, they have a pretty shitty way of showing it. In the end, we are told yet again that we will find out all we want to know when we buy and play the game. Seems a bit shitty. If they were truly confident all they have done is good for PC gaming, they'd have no problems with being fully open. By the way, it is brought up that there will be no PC demo. If we buy the game and it sucks, we are essentially fucked and IW already has their money.
N2DEEP: I run lan parties for PC, how will you be able to lan without internet access and no dedicated servers as you could with cod4?
Mackey-IW: We can play at work on our lan by doing private match and there is no lag.
JD8: Several members of my clan are in other countries, If your new system doesn't consider them a good match to play with us they may feel like an outsider in our clan community. How are we supposed to keep our clan base if we don't get to choose who is a good match?
Vince-IW: Party up!
GeneralClean: Have you tested IW.net with connecting with overseas players? And if so what were the results?
Vince-IW: Yes, seemed good.
ulukai: I'm in a lan party association our last lan had 400 players, can we play lan with the pc version and is the game made for lan party competition and last question could you explain why there is no collector version on pc ?
Mackey-IW: As long as you can connect to steam you can play the game fine.
The LAN issue is danced around a bit until they state that a steam connection is required. While I do support steam, LAN support has always been an issue. The problem becomes worse if the LAN has not internet connection.
gdogg: Are you aware of the petition to for dedicated servers and mods, have you taken this into acount?
Vince-IW: yes.
will0812: Do you honestly think you have improved the PC version with IW.Net, you cannot claim the gameplay is smoother, as dedicated servers are much more efficient.?
Mackey-IW: Yes, we believe MW2 is better than CoD4:MW. The reason iw.net exists is to improve the gameplay for our users.
TrastX: You guys have made it easier for PC players to hope in a random game, but you made it harder for Clans to stay together and play in a community fashion like were used to. How will we be able to play with the same people on a regular basis without having 100s of people on our friends list, is there ever a way to join the same match rooms?
Vince-IW: Yes, you can party up with people and play with them.
So, if someone plays with huge groups of people, they will need to maintain a huge friends list. Question answered. Clans still get fucked.
LaGgY_42o: What kinds of pings did you get during your IWNet testing and what do you say is an acceptable ping?
Mackey-IW: I've been playing mainly with around 100ms ping and it was great.
This is one of my favorites. 100ms is pretty poor. I shoot for sub 40 pings in COD4.
Laugh: Is there a console in the PC version of the game, so we can change our field of view from the xbox's default 65 FOV to 80 also can we tweaks the weapon damage for each gun, removes perks, graphical debris, breathing sway, also thru console like we where able to before or is this all gone?
Vince-IW: We would like you to play the game the way we designed and balanced it.
"Customization? Get bent!" I smell some shit. Reminds me of RBS: Vegas.
TheNinthAxis: Is there lean in PC multiplayer.
Vince-IW: No.
zach426: What was your guy's logic behind removing the lean feature for PC, a feature that was a mainstay from all of your previous call of duty titles?
Mackey-IW: The game is not balanced for lean.
Leaning around corners is apparently bad for balance. Odd. If every player can do it, how can it be unbalanced? Oh, I know, this was nuked because the consoles don't do it. PC gamers get shafted again.
Freeman06: Hello, are you considering ever patching in mod tools for the pc to make custom maps and such?
Mackey-IW: Right now we're focused on launching our game.
Game modding is apparently not necessary despite modding's huge roll in the multiplayer success of many PC games. Oh, thats right, consoles don't have modding. Huh.
DudezTY: Since we can not kick people in ranked matches, how will we stop hackers who get past VAC?
Mackey-IW: Our goal is to ban hackers from the game.
This sounds like it'll work. Sorta. Well, hopefully. It might work. Maybe. Too bad the idea of admin capabilities was too complicated.
Torinir: How does IWNet plan to address serious griefing, such as intentional teamkilling, voice/chat spamming, and other unwanted behaviours in public matchmade games? This includes organized griefing from groups like myg0t.
Mackey-IW: You can easily mute players, and hardcore (friendly fire enabled ) SD has "ricochet" which makes you hurt yourself instead.
I guess it might not work after all. If someone really wants to be an ass, simply muting them or small punishments that do not remove them from the game will NOT prevent them from affecting a match. Red and I experienced this first hand the other day. Our commander in BF2 was TKing, constantly spotting, and abusing both voice and text chat. We could mute VOIP and his score was punished when he TKed. This douche didn't care though. He still acted like a total douche and ruined the game until the map change and I beat him to the commander spot. This did not stop him from being a tool and TKing. Had there been an admin, a swift kick/ban would have solved the problem.
paintballrulzzz: Will there be a boot option if someone "team kills" you like in halo3? I find it really annoying trying to play a game of hard core search and destroy with out getting team killed. can you explain the kill streaks and all the new ones?
This question is never answered directly but in replies to other questions. It seems there will be no way to remove undesirable players from games.
homie_wanna_liv: Can you dual wield SMG's with akimbo? Or just pistols?
Mackey-IW: Yup SMGs
Mackey-IW: And shottys if I'm not mistaken.
Jumping full body around corners in a firefight not being unrealistic enough, we apparently need to do it Hollywood style too. Stupid.
Moriarte: Ignoring IW.net, is the PC version a direct port of the console version?
Mackey-IW: No, PC has custom stuff like mouse control, text chat in game, and graphics settings.
I'm blown the fuck away. We can use out mouse? Type with our keyboard? Adjust graphics settings? Amazing.
So, I think its been well established that MW2 on the PC will play out like a shitty glorified console port. And unlike console games, PC copies will have no resale value. We will not be able to try it before we buy it and cannot return it if we don't like it. Multiplayer is going to be a giant turd and will we be unable to mod it to our liking. The singleplayer sounds like it may hold the only redeeming qualities but singleplayer alone doesn't justify a $60 price tag. Consoles have ruined another great PC franchise and turned into a festering turd that will only remind us of how good the predecessors were. _________________ I AM rackmountable.
Posted: Fri Nov 06 @ 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Modern Warfare 2 to not have Dedicated servers?
They will get none of my money - hell - L4D2 has a better chance of getting my money that COD5.
And that's saying a lot! _________________ Worklog: ATTN2Detail
Worklog: RPM Flow Sensors for Liquid
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